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BuddyHolly.com Community BuddyHolly.com Discussion Board Buddy Holly and His Music About Buddy Holly The airplane
BuddyHolly.com Community BuddyHolly.com Discussion Board Buddy Holly and His Music About Buddy Holly The airplanePage 1 2
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If you had the choice to stop Buddy Holly from boarding the airplane...would you? Besides the fact that it was a tragedy upon itself, would you want to see his music style change over the years, with age, with the times...To me he would have to retire, or just be so secular from the rest of the music world that he himself would be an original entity.
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But see, the thing is is that none of would have known at the time that the pilot had difficulties when it came flying solely by his intstruments, and that he was subject to experincing vertigo, etc. Someone was quoted as once saying that Buddy has the same charisma that he had 45 years ago because we never had to watch him grow old, and quite possibly watch him become blind, as it seems quite possible, especially considering his eyesight at 22 was more than enough to classify him as legally blind. All the unfortunate stuff that seems to happen to people as they get older, no matter the type of star that they were in their youth, we never had to watch Buddy go through. I mean, this is a good question, but I really don't know if I can answer it truthfully. Going back in time, knowing that his plane would crash, yes, certainly I would have stopped it. not only for him, but also for the future that Ritchie Valens had and the high that the Big Bopper was riding on, and so that maybe Waylon Jennings wouldn't have to live with the guilt of as meaning only as a joke that he hoped that hs friend's plane crashed, and that Maria Elena, Joe B. Maudlin and Jerry Allison wouldn't miss their buddy everyday. But had I been there, watching one of my favorite stars of all time board a plane so that he could entertain hundreds of girls just like me who thought that Buddy Holly was just absoulutely so amazing, well, I wouldn't know better. Look at the influence that his music has had on people even now, there's 17, 16, 15 and even 14 year olds listening to it. So had he lived, I have no doubt that the music world would have been quite shook up.
 This is such a hard subject though, because would that music that he may have recorded in his 30s and 40s be as appealing to us as the stuff that we have now is? I don't even know if this reply actually replied to anything, but I think you also need to clarify your question. Going back in time, knowing what was going to happen, yes, probably I would have stopped the plane. If there is anyone who wouldn't stop the plane if they went back in time, why wouldn't you? This is an honest serious question. Is it because you feel that Buddy's influence wouldn't have hit the height that it has had he lived? But being just another screaming girl on the tarmack, how would I know that Buddy would die? I know we certainly lost a major part of the music world on February 3, and I don't think that something even remotely close to that will be available again, but was it for the better or the worst? Tough question, matchpoint. But it is good.they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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That was a good reply. Well thought out.
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This is a great question. I would, without doubt, stop that plane had I had any power to do so (and had I not been born 24 years after the crash). I would stop it because there's more to him than his music, and there was a lot more in that plane than him. There was his wife and his unborn child. There was Donna. There was the Big Bopper's wife and son that was born 84 days after his death. There were also a lot of songs that never got written. There's more to a man than his music, and I'd choose life over a song for anyone any day.
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Hey guys, I am new to the board. So please take it easy on me! I think Buddy Holly is one of the most influencial people not only of his generation or time, but also the last 100 years.... or so...
But to answer that question... To not want to save someone from an inevitable death is not to be human. Regardless of who they are. Not to want to save someone, a legend in this case, who did so much in such a little time and was such s bright light, would be a crime. At the same time, the argument can be made for the fact that his death catipulted Buddy to Legendary status. Not saying his music and influence wasnt a valid point or reason, but my perspective is that death does something to our societies mindset and how we perceive the departed after their passing. A good argument of this can be made throughout history and in different genres. My other point would be, would you guys really want to see Buddy at his worst, growing old, making music tht might not of appealed to you or possibly embarass himself? Look at groups that have broken up and pushed off into solo carreers and tried to continue to rock into old age. Or people that changed for the worse in their elder age...(I.E. elvis) So this is a difficult question to answer. Hope I didnt affend anyone and u guys arent to harsh on my comments. |
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Let me just say that I'am the biggest Buddy holly fan there is I have been to many of Buddy's familar haunts and have felt that he was with me in some way I was born in 1977 and have been enjoying his music for as long as I can remember I guess in response to the question of would I have saved buddy that night in mason city tha answer most definitly would be hell yes some wonder if his star would shine as bright if he had lived and gone into oldie oblivion and all I can say is of course it would have we forgotten about Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry and Little Richard just to name some of the few who has lived to a an age of 70 but Buddy Holly will forever be the young and talented true king of Rock-n-Roll in my eyes How many other 22yr olds who was on top for a mere 18 months prior to the winter dance party of 59' will be remembered and loved as much as Buddy most of his fans that I've meet at the Surf Ballroom and in Lubbock were born after his death much like myself in closing I just want to add that Buddy will always be the greatest pioneer of early Rock-n Roll one of the greatest singer-songwriters of his time the most talented guitar players of his time the greatest producer of all time I believe that is why he will be remembered for all time Buddy will never Fade away
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I was born in late December of 1959, almost eleven months after Buddy and J.P. Richardson and Richie Valens died in that light plane crash in Iowa. So, all through my childhood, I listened to Buddy Holly played "in tribute" on the local Texas radio stations... There was always kind of a "moment of silence" in the room when the DJ announced a Buddy Holly song, followed by a lot of head shaking--God, HOW could this have happened to such a promising young musician? Think of where he could've taken rock & roll.... What a waste.
Now I'm in my mid-40s... more than twice as old as Buddy Holly was when he died. And I've come to realize that you can SAY a lot of sentimental things about a lot of promising young people whose lives are cut short, and you can always envision those young people going on to greater and greater achievements---if only they hadn't died so young. This is, after all, how legends are made. But sentimental speculation usually has little to do with reality. That's why, as much as I love Buddy Holly's music and celebrate his brief life, I don't think I'd try to stop that dirty laundry flight out of the Mason City airport that night. That's a helluva thing to say, I know. Buddy Holly became something else after he died in that terrible crash---because we just didn't want to believe he was gone. Throughout the 1960s, we observed a moment of silence every time we heard Peggy Sue or Oh, Boy or Rave On or That'll Be The Day, and we shook our heads. We wanted Buddy Holly to be immortal... And THAT is what shaped rock & roll through the 1960s and 70s, my friends. Not Buddy Holly's music. It was our desire to make him---and ourselves, I guess---immortal through music. Like, if we could keep his style and memory alive, through Bobby V, or the Beatles, or the Rolling Stones, or Gary Busey or who-the-hell-ever, then Buddy would be immortalized, so he never really died in early '59 with half his brains emptied out in a snowy Iowa cornfield. Sorry for the visual, but that's another part of coming to terms with reality. Reality is an ugly thing---nobody has figured out how to dress it up successfully without completely changing the facts. As far as I'm concerned, Buddy was probably headed for a mediocre career in later life---he was a hardheaded businessman (which is not a compliment) and he had a temper. Most significantly, Buddy was a loner---he knew he COULD do it on his own, and shame on you if you crossed him. In other words, Buddy wasn't exactly a team player when the going got tough, which is NOT helpful in building personal power within the music industry. So, if Buddy had lived, if he had just waited for better weather or somehow avoided that deadly flight on a freezing night in February, where would he be today? Probably in the same place that Chuck Berry is, if we can draw a comparison. Berry was also a hardheaded businessman, with a temper, who was very individualistic and didn't play well with other children, and so became a millionaire recluse living off of his oldies, while the rest of the music industry moved on. Would Buddy have had such a major impact on music if he had followed the same route? Probably about the same impact as Carl Perkins, or Jerry Lee Lewis, or Chuck Berry, or any of the other burned-out 1950s has-beens. But he wouldn't be the immortal icon that he is today. Buddy's sensational, untimely death spawned generations of mourners, generations of copycats, and generations of real musical innovators who were/are bent on preserving Buddy's instant of youthful energy forever. Had he lived, I'm afraid Buddy wouldn't have the same strong following, nor the same impact. If I could go back to February 3, 1959, and pull up in a big old black Buick at the Mason City airport at around 1:00 am, just before Buddy's plane went hurtling down the icy runway and into oblivion, I think I would get out and tromp thru the snow to the plane, bang on the passenger door...and ask Buddy for his autograph. Then I'd wish him a pleasant and safe flight. I just don't think I could tolerate seeing Buddy growing old and being forgotten; then again, if he had lived, I might not care about him one way or the other right now... This message has been edited. Last edited by: Charles Austin, |
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Quoted by Charles Austin: "I just don't think I could tolerate seeing Buddy growing old and being forgotten"
I agree with you on that. To watch someone as marvelous as that grow old, and not have what he had in hos youth isn't something that is wanted by many people. However,even with his untimely death, I think that he is forgotten. I was just down in Arizona, and while doing some shopping, took a moment to look for some Buddy Holly music that may not be available in Canada. Not one CD. Not even a marker to show where his stuff would have gone had there been any CDs of his in stock. This is America, and Buddy is American. But there is no truth of that in the music selection available. I don't doubt that his influence would have been a little less hard hitting if he had lived. As humans, we always seem to want to make the departed better than they were, not to say that Buddy wasn't great. But it's not just his music that we lost that night. Maria Elena lost her husband that night, who had married her because he loved her, no matter what the society was dictating at that time about racial barriers. Not only that, she lost the only part that was also a part of her husband: their baby. Jerry Allison and Joe B. Maudlin never had a chance to reconcile that argument that may have been caused by Buddy's temper. Waylon Jennings lived with guilt because of his last conversation with his friend. I see both points of those who say they would have stopped the plane, and those who said they wouldn't. Heck, I don't know if I would be as interested in Buddy as I am had he lived to a ripe old age and kept singing and producing. I got hooked on him because of an English project I had to do. Some of my friends did artists that are still alive today, and they just saw the assignment as exactly as it was: a project, because the most recent music wasn't interesting. So maybe part of my interest was his death, and that he left so much unfinished. One last point is that it's easy to envision what Buddy Holly would have done because he was so great in his own time. I think he's a legend because of what he did, not what he could have done. I mean, sure, the Crickets are still little known, not like KISS or anything, but they're still making music, and I think they do it cause they don't know anything else, because they love it. And that's important. they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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Aloha Everyone, new to the board, but not new to Buddy Holly...
I don't think I can totally agree with how Buddy might have been forgotten...I have often wondered how both Buddy and also a guy like Eddie Cochran would have turned out had they not died... I think comparing Buddy to a guy like Chuck Berry is very difficult...don't get me wrong I am a big fan of Chuck Berry too, but how inovative was he...he went between Rock'n'Roll and blues and back...I think it would be more appropriate to compare Buddy Holly to a guy like Bobby Darin who went from Rock'n'Roll to ballads, to Folk, to Country and to Lounge/Las Vegas music...Holly covered almost all these genres in his short career and could have gone anywhere he wanted to? (although I am not a big fan of all of Darins big band music...then you can see that it has now come back with the movie, and Brian Setzer doing swing music and big band music etc... So maybe Buddy Holly would have found a second career in Las Vegas, and then some years down the road joined Roy Orbison in The Traveling Wilbury's, where he would have hung out with Jeff Lynne in the control booth and done all the producing, and jammed with George Harrison on a secret track that would last for 20 minutes...that would have been called Harrison's Hop |
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Aloha, and don't get me wrong---I wasn't trying to draw a parallel between Chuck Berry's musical range and Buddy's.
Actually, Chuck didn't even try to get into blues, by his own admission, because he didn't come from the right background---Chuck's family always had food on the table and clothes on their backs and a roof over their heads, and he considered this to be too comfortable a background for a real blues man. So Chuck went for themed music---school, cars, girls, and rock & roll for its own sake. That's his explanation, anyway. Buddy, I think, was a themed artist, too, as I've mentioned elsewhere on this board. Buddy's theme was love... Love is the backbone of, like, 90% of Buddy's songs---both the ones he wrote and the ones written by others that he performed. Granted, love is a pretty monstrous theme to try to cover in one career, but Buddy seemed dedicated to it. What I was comparing was Chuck's hard-headed business sense to Buddy's hardheaded business sense. Very similar. I think Chuck stayed in his themed music to the bitter end, because that's where he was safe. It was his market. Likewise, Buddy--while an innovative musician and performer--probably would've played it safe and stayed with what worked for him in the past. I can't see Buddy evolving the way some acts evolved in the 1960s, and I'm not sure that his style of innocent love songs would have fared as well in the down-and-dirty 1960s... I mean, could you imagine Buddy evolving the way the Beatles or the Stones did? From sock-hop rock to psychedelic rock in less than a decade? Wow. Buddy on acid...with a guru. It hurts my brain.  |
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I know what you mean, and yes that would be hard to see Buddy Holly on acid...but that's why I compared him to Bobby Darin...
Although I could also imagine Buddy grow up in a business sense too, with more money coming in as rock becoming more mainstream etc... |
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Now, as a songwriter and producer, I think Buddy was open-minded enough to launch a thousand ships in a thousand directions, and it would have been interesting to see the horses in his stable by the 70s or 80s... But, as far as Buddy's own performance career was concerned, I don't think it would have survived the 60s. IMHO
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well that is almost true for any original rocker of the 50's I guess...
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Yeah, except for Elvis, I can't think of any 50s rockers who went on to super-stardom... Maybe in their own minds they were superstars (e.g. Jerry Lee Lewis), but I really think that the latter 1950s was a unique musical niche, full of novelties that were never meant to exist beyond that time frame.
As much as Buddy's music and style represented a transition to the wild-ass 1960s, I think he represented the end of the age of innocence in rock & roll history. Meaning to say, I don't think Buddy could have aspired to the same level of greatness at any time other than the late 1950s. |
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I think you hit it on the spot there...although I must say that there was a transition of blue-eyed bop before the 60's went wild...even the Beatles was part of this...for the first years of the 60's...this is probably more a financial issue than anything...
Yes you are right that Elvis went on to superstardom, but in my opinion then he did not move in that many directions with his music...(I might be a little to hard here...he made great music...but in hindsight then he is not considered the inovator in the 60's as he was in the 50's in my opinion...) |
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Not only was Buddy's theme love, I believe his theme was also rock and roll. Allow me to explain. Keith Richards has been quoted as saying that "you turn on the radio, and even if it's a brand-new release, you hear Buddy Holly in it. How much? Well, that's another story. He was one of the union you know?" (Watch the Real Buddy Holly Story!)
I have nothing against Elvis except that people give due to him when due isn't given at the same time to Buddy. If we were to look at this in another sense, I believe Elvis would be the publicity agent who was promoting the item (namely rock and roll) but Buddy would be the creator of the item. (again, namely rock and roll.) Look at how many rock stars have died, because of their lifestyles. All those rockers of the 50's, 60's, Kurt Cobain, John Lennon are the only two individuals that come to mind right now. In a sense, Buddy died because of his lifestlye. He wanted to get warm and get his laundry down. He was a star, and there was no other sensible way to do these things except to take a plane. Not to say that rockers who die of drug overdoses and drinking abuse are sensible, because it's not, but it may be partly because of their lifestyle that they do that. In light of his death, although there were some lean years there in real rock and roll, I think it's important that no matter who forgot Charles Hardin "Buddy" Holley, there was another rock and roller right there to remember him, and I truly think the best musicians never forgot him. The true rock and rollers. And only the good die young right? In the 50's, let's say that at about 35 years of age was dying young. Think about how great that makes Buddy.  they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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Does anyone have a VHS or DVD of the VH1 documentary "The Day the Music Died" for sale or trade? If so, e-mail me at: RWilson963@aol.com
Thanks, Scott Wilson |
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Can't really help you, but here's a bit of a teaser: a clip of the movie can be found at:
http://www.vh1.com/sitewide/apps/mediaplayer/index.jhtml?vid=15921&channelID;=3&orgID;=1&gateway;=artists&paid;=9325&s0;=artists&s1;=az&s2;=holly_buddy&s3;=artist.jhtml&refURL;=/artists/az/holly_buddy/artist.jhtml&adPth;=/asm/adsetup/artists/az/&adPN;=artist they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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If I had the chance, threre is no way in hell i wouldnt stop that plane.I would do anything to have been able to witness Buddy continue to evolve music and mold it into peices of bueaty that were as full of scincerity as they were pure talent.And yes, i agree with most of you in the fact that Buddy is, very tragically, fairly forgotten to most of todays society. I am constantly blown away by the fact that whenever one of my friends asks me who Im listening to, their reply is always "Buddy who?" It brings tears to my eyes that even my parents, both in their 40s, feel that Buddy wasnt able to make a big enough dent in the music industry to be remebered as fondly as say, Elvis.I cannot imagine how so many people can be so ignorant of the musical innovation and contributions Buddy Holly made in just three short years, and to the fact that most artists never reach the point of Buddys popularity, even if they're around for 50 years.However, i would also say that it would break my heart perhaps equally so to have had Buddy simply fizzle into oblivion, overtaken by such bands as the Beatles or the Rolling Stones.....although, I doubt this would of occurred, as it is evident in his last pieces that he was able be flexible with his music and create what the times called for.Many people today say that Buddy Holly is most famous for the dramatic and tragic way in which his death came to pass, my father included.However its astonishing how un-educated any of these individuals are. They would rather love and remember a man who, in my opinion,was rather manufactured(my apologies to the Elvis fans out there) than one that had such a genuine demenour and scincerity not only in is music, but intrgraded into his personality.All three of the stars we lost were only just beggining what promised to be long and prosperous careers, but that doesnt mean they didnt make a lasting mark on music as well as artists for generations to come, not to mention a gaping hole that reasaulted in their passing.Would I stop that plane? Your damn right I would, if not for the music, than for Maria or Donna or any of the countless others who mourn their deaths everday.
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I don't think that the Beatles and the Rolling Stones would have let themselves surpass Buddy in the way of fame, remember, even the Beatles themselves directly credit Buddy for his music ("Whenever someone like Paul McCarteny says 'without the Crickets there would be no Beatles', I say 'Excuse me? I'd like to hear that again!'"-Jerry Allison) and the Rolling Stones have a lot to thank Buddy for too, their first hit was Not Fade Away.
Buddy was always years ahead of his time. So he would have always been doing something different, something not to become popular until five years after he had first done it. \And yes, definitely, there was more at stake than just the music, there was Donna, the Big Bopper's family, wife and son, there was Ritchie's family (the kid was only 17!) and Maria Elena, the baby on the way, Buddy's family, and the unresolved conflict between Buddy and his bandmates. Wouldn't that be awful? Waylon Jennings' last words to Buddy have been highly publicized because of the problems Waylon had dealing with what he and Buddy had last said to each other, in a joking matter, actually came true. But to be eighteen, nineteen years old and to fight with a guy that you had known all your life, to fight over some trival thing because, really, of someone else (*cough* Norm Petty) and think that you knew that you guys would make it up sooner or later, because that's what always happened, but this time it didn't, wouldn't that be hard to live with too? You wake up one morning and you hear that your best friend is dead, and you guys never got to say all those things that you wanted and needed to say to each other. Imagine that. (Joe B.'s reconlection of hearing about Buddy's death can be seen on the Real Buddy Holly Story, though Jerry is just seen talking about the separation and not his friend's death."My sister called me. Woke me up as a matter of fact, but I didn't believe it til I went down and bought a newspaper, though all I had to do was turn on the radio. It still took me a couple of years to believe it, I mean, cause I didn't see him or anything, it was a closed casket funeral. Maybe it was a publicity stunt or something, and I thought that any day now, I'll see him, walking down that street." -Joe B. Maudlin) they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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I agree with you about the fact that the Crickets, aswell as Waylon Jennings, must have had a tremendous amount to deal with after Buddys death. I could not (and would rather not) imagine the guilt Jenning must still live with to this day( my mom said hes diedut I dont really know) about his, as you said, highly publized final words to Buddy. In that interview he kept stating how he felt the whole thing was entirely his fault, until a friend told him that he couldnt make Buddy come back by saying a few words,so he couldnt make he die that way either. As for the Crickets, I agree with you that that whole diagreement was Norman Pettys fault,although there were other factors involved,like the boys wanting to work and live in Lubbock and Buddy wanting to stay in New York. I also believe it was Pettys fault that Buddy even went on the Winter Dance Party Tour, as he needed the money after the legal battle with Petty(this is from memory, so forgive me if Im mistaken) I enjoyed that quote from Joe B. Mauldin, although I think its was a closed casket funeral for....obvious reasons....i mean come on, its not like none of us havent seen Buddys death certificate, although Im sure none of us went looking for it.( i was on some Buddy website and i pressed the wrong link and it took me there....i cried like a baby after i read it, not to mention i wasnt able to look ata picture of him for like a week it traumatized me so much.)But Im sure that all of us are praying it was just a publicity stunt, and that one day we really will see Buddy walking down the street, at which time we will all likely die of heart attacks.
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Waylon Jennings has died, in 2002, and I believe it was from complications of diabetes, but don't run out and quote me on that, though I know he did experince problems with diabetes in his later years. Interesting enough, his last recordings were covers of Buddy's songs, for a tribute album, I believe Not Fade Away (remembering Buddy Holly) was the second last he recorded, and the track for the album The Crickets and Their Buddies was the last thing he recorded.
I'm going pretty much totally on the information that I pulled from the Real Buddy Holly Story, although the crediabilty may be questioned as it is all anecdotes of other people. (due to this, I have experinced much confusion to when Buddy, J.I. and if Joe B. graduated because at one point, J.I. says that Buddy graduated in 1955, and himself in 1956, though at another point in the movie it says Buddy graduated in 1954, so.....)Anyways, J.I. has said that the original plan was that all the boys would go to New York, because they were a band and bands stay together. Norm Petty was the one who saw J.I.'s and Joe B.'s doubts though, and preyed on that point, convincing the boys that he had control of the money and that they ought to stay in Lubbock. The quote from Joe B. Maudlin is, again, from the movie, and although it is from memory, I believe that I'm pretty close. Yes, understandably it was a closed casket funeral. Nice quote about the dying of heart attacks, wouldn't "that be the day." they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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Thanks, but that probably would be the case. Well it would be for me anyway, as my heart stops beating even if I get a glimpse of Buddy on t.v, never mind seeing the real thing! Now that Iv'e thought about it, I understand Joe B. Mauldins comment about thinking it was a publicity stunt because he never actually saw Buddy dead. I guess thinking of it that way is a great way to cope with the pain and to mabey hold on to hope that isnt there.While seeing Buddys body might provided some much needed closure, i dont think anyone,especially one of his best friends, would want to see him in that state. Im sure everyone rathers remebering the Buddy they saw smiling onstage as he wailed on his giuitar, singing about love and bliss.Lets all pray that Buddy continues to do just that, and that one day we can all join in and forget that we ever lost such a wonderful man.
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Not to be morbid or anything, but when you said that "I don't think anyone, especially one of his best friends, would want to see him in that state," it reminded me of something I read. I can't remember the exact details, but I believe that a friend of the family or someone went with Larry Holley to collect the body in Iowa. When the two got there, it was the friend that went inside the funeral home and saw Buddy, to verify I guess. When the friend came out, he threw up and said to Larry, 'I'm glad you didn't go in there."
they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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Have you actually seen his death certificate? Oh my God, its no wonder he threw up. I realize that this is going to sound really morbid, but after I read it, something in my mind must of triggered and the first picture I saw of Buddy afterward had a big crack going down his forehead. It made me double over and start to gag, and I had tears in my eyes. I really wish I had never of read it, because every once and a while it'll happen again.Just thinking about it makes me shake. Im sorry if you think Im gross now, but Im very sensitive to things like that, and it really bothered me.
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No, it's all right, I had problems reading his death certificate myself. My younger brother doesn't understand that the doors of the airplane didn't have to be open for the singers to be thrown from the plane, but I understand, and that in itself bothers me greatly, never mind the injuries that the singers sustained upon making contact with the unforgiving cornfield.
they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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One thing I never understood was, givin the description of how the plane first hit the ground, and then the fact that it supposedly spiralled and skidded, how the singers were thrown from the plane.Forgive me for arising this, but it has always seemed kind of odd that if it was the planes left wing(I think) that hit the ground first,then how were they thrown out? And how, in saying that they were thrown out, were none of the seatbelts damaged? Again, forgive me for arising this morbid topic, but it has never seemed to make sense how incedible the singers injuries were, considering it was mostly the impact with the ground that killed them.Not to mention the variety in injury from each of the victims. Iv'e seen Ritchie Valens death certificate aswell, and while the fundemaental cause of death was the same, the injuries were drasticaly different.
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I don't know the details either, but I would think that the individual singer's size, weight and where he was sitting in the plane would have something to do with it. I would think that just the impact would be enough to throw them through the roof or windshield, what have you. Although there is speculation that it was actully Buddy who was in the front seat and not the Bopper, it is interesting to note that all three singers, were thrown from the wreck, none of them trapped inside like Roger Peterson, yet one of them would have had to be up front with the pilot and would have had the same chances of being trapped by the instruments as young Mr. Peterson was. As I said before, the singer's weight was probably a factor, as the Bopper was thrown 40 feet further than Ritchie or Buddy, probably because of his greater weight.
That's an interesting point about the seatbelts.....maybe they were so excited about leaving the tour bus behind that none of them were wearing seatbelts except the pilot, which would offer another explanation as to why he was the only one trapped inside the plane? they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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You bring up an excellent point about the singers size and weight being a factor in how far they were thrown. However, while it makes sense as to why the Big Bopper was thrown considerably farther than the other two, its puzzling as to why Ritchie was thrown the same distance as Buddy. Ritchie Valens was still a skinny kid, but he had a thick build plus he was like 6 feet tall.I believe you may be correct in saying that its more than likley that none of them, save Roger Peterson, were wearing seatbelts. Afterall the plane did crash not only 10 minutes from take off, they probably never had the chance. And I do believe Buddy was in the front seat, however, as you have said, i got this information from speculation. Have you ever heard the theory that supposedly Buddy had a gun onboard and a shot was fired that disabled the pilot? I personally dont think that anyone belives it, but nonetheless, the crash is puzzling, so why not?......The theory that Roger Peterson didnt know how to fly by intstrements so he simply drove them into the ground is a much more plausable one though, and I think the one that most fans believe.
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I don't believe that the theory Roger Peterson could fly by his instruments was at all a theory and was actually a fact. The most common blamed instrument in the crash is called a gyroscope, newly installed in the plane. It shows a miniture version of the plane, but there is a trick to this marvelous instrument. If you're climbing, the plane in the viewfinder descends. If you're falling, the plane in the viewfinder climbs. With the knowledge that Roger Peterson was not actually fully capable of flying that flight (he did have problems doing a solo instrument flight and prone to vertigo) do you get where I'm going here?
The questions you have brought up have been discussed outher parts on this board, so just for a quick recap: it's possible that the Bopper and Buddy could have swapped seats so that Buddy was in the front, seeing as how he wanted to get his pilot's liscence and all. However, the Bopper was a big man, and the Bonanza is not a big plane. Others say that Ritchie and the Bopper would have been quite squished in the back, never mind that the weight balence of the plane would be off, but witnesses seem to remember Buddy being next to the pilot. Again, with the gun theory, yes, Buddy's gun was found at the scene of the crash and had been recently fired, but sources say that it was the farmer who fired it upon finding it, because when he handed it over to authorities he made the comment that "it works too!" As one website put it, would you shoot anyone in the plane, neverless the pilot, if you had even the slightest inclination of that you were crashing? Buddy was just shy of six feet, so him and Ritchie would have been about the same build, but from what you say, I assume that Ritchie was, stockier, if you will, than Buddy, seeing as how Buddy was one skinny anorexic looking kid. For the sake of my following theory, let's assume that a) Buddy and Ritchie were in the back and that b) no one except the pilot was weating a seatbelt. The Bopper, as stated previously, was thrown farther because of his weight, and, if he was in the front seat, because he was that much further ahead of Ritchie and Buddy to begin with. Ritchie and Buddy would have been thrown about the same distance because their point of projection, I guess you would call it, was the same, and they were roughly the same size. After seeing pictures of the plane (very hard to look at) I really don't know how they even knew that was a plane to begin with, because it looks like anything but. I don't want to think about how it got in that condition, but that's the answer to your question as to how they were thrown from the wreck. Basically, the outside of the fuselage didn't exist anymore. Sadly, all these questions that we ask, even the simple ones like who was sitting in front/back, were lost with the snow and wind on that night in February. Interesting point, why do all the injuries vary so? This message has been edited. Last edited by: buddy_blue, they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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Again, although there's been tons of speculation over the decades, I'm convinced that the three entertainers were thrown out of the plane on the first impact. The Beechcraft Bonanza was in the middle of a 90° bank, meaning its wings were pointed straight up and down... And the right wingtip made contact with the ground at around 165 mph. The wingtip cut a gash 50 ft long in the earth before the wing apparently disintegrated, and the plane slammed nose-first into the ground before sliding and tumbling another 200 yards to a rest.
Here's why I say they were thrown clear very early in the crash---anybody who remained inside the plane after the first impact would have ended up like poor Roger Peterson (who was pinned into his seat by the steering controls), crushed and tangled inside the horrible wreckage. So, nobody was ejected from the plane late in the crash (such as when it reached the fenceline). Instead, the three singers were thrown out on the first impact, and bounced along outside the wreckage for 540 feet, with the heavier bits traveling a bit further than the lighter bits. Regarding the seatbelts---there is evidence that the seatbelts were in use. The CAB Report says that the seatbelts were undamaged, meaning the seatbelt straps and buckles did not fail... But the seatbelts were ripped out of their anchor points, indicating that the bodies were thrown free under tremendous G-forces... such as you would encounter in the first impact, but not at the end of the tumble. The injuries to the three entertainers, as described by the coroner, are consistent with bouncing and tumbling along outside the plane wreckage---broken and pulverized bones, relatively few lacerations, severe head trauma, very similar to a high speed motorcycle crash, where the victim tumbles freely over a hard surface. Still, the boys weren't decapitated or dismembered. Roger, on the other hand, looked like he had been through a food processor, trapped inside the plane. So, I conclude Buddy, Ritchie and J.P. were outside of the wreckage from the very beginning of the crash---but they were probably dead on the first impact, IMHO.  |
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I completly agree that its more than likely that the three were thrown from the aircraft upon impact, and that all three were killed in the motion. I do not agree however, that the injuries were consistant, save for the basics.I dont know to much about the Big Bopper, but I know for certain that the injuries between Buddy and Ritchie varied greatly.Yes both suffered severe head truama, however Ritchies skull was never cracked,just severly crushed. Plus, Buddys chest was apperenlty "soft", for lack of a better word, due to a repetitive crushing injury,to quote the coroner.Ritchie never suffered such an injury,as a matter of fact he suffered realativly few broken bones, save for his left arm and a leg. Buddy, on the other had, had his whole pelvic region and thighs pulverized, as well as an arm. As far as the lacerations go, Ritchie had few to none, and Buddy had several on his face, and, um, down there reagion.So, in stating all these morbid and disturbing facts,(Iv'e only seen the death certificates once, I just have a good memory)it would stand to reason that:a)Buddy was probably in the front seat, considering the increased severity of his injuries, and possibly providing an explaination to his chest injury, as that may have been inflicted by the instruments before he was ejected,and b)his seatbelt was in better working condition then that of Ritchies, as that could provide an explaination to Buddys "regional" injuries, and could also provide an explanation to the increased severity of his injuries as it may have caused him to be ejected at a later period of time. However a good point was made that if Ritchie and the Bopper were both in the back, they would have been fairly squished, as well as possibly throwing the weight of the plane off. However, I stand with the evidence that I provided above, as it could provide a very plausable explaination to Buddys injuries.As for Ritchie and Buddy being roughly the same size(lol to Buddy being a skinny anorexic looking kid), while they were similar in height, yes Buddy was anorexic looking, and in sayingthat Ritchie was much heavier(his producer describes him as being a "bull-like kid" because he was so.....strongly built.)So, yet further speculation is provided as to what happened and why, and as you said, we shall never know....however in relating how painful it is just to see pictures of the demolished aircraft, are we really so sure we want to know the truth?
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quote: I was saying that Buddy's, Ritchie's and J.P.'s injuries were "consistent with bouncing and tumbling along outside the plane wreckage," as opposed to being pinned inside the plane and being chopped to pieces as in a garbage disposal. I wasn't saying that Buddy, Ritchie and J.P. had the same injuries, but the injuries they had were consistent with being ejected from the craft. As for Buddy's torso being crushed-in, it fits perfectly with the Buddy-in-front-seat scenario: On that devastating first impact, Ritchie and J.P. (combined weight of 365 lbs) were thrown forward at ±165 mph into the front of the cabin, effectively crushing everything between them and the point of impact... So Buddy and Roger were undoubtedly crushed in a split-second, with Roger pin-cushioned by the steering controls (The steering grips actually penetrated his ribcage, holding him tight in the cabin). I dare venture that the bodies of Ritchie and J.P. plowed right through the windshield and/or roof of the plane, carrying Buddy out with them, leaving Roger inside as the plane was reduced to a crumpled rag of metal. In brief, Buddy was blasted face-first out of the plane by the cannonball of Ritchie's & J.P.'s bodies, and I believe that, accordingly, Buddy's injuries were most severe of the three entertainers. The only upside to this picture is that the guys were all dead on impact, I'm sure. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Charles Austin, |
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An excellent theory, and probably the closest yet to what actually occured. The enalogy of Ritchie and J.P plunging Buddy through the windshield would explain the lacerations, and , as I had said, would explain the chest injury with the involvment of the instruments. We should probably be greatful that both Ritchie and J.P were in the back, as they more than likley prevented Buddy from ending up like poor Mr.Peterson. I believe i read somewhere that yes, there was no possible way that any of the occupants of the aircraft could have survived beyond first imapct, so I guess your right in stating this as an upside, at least they didnt feel any pain, they probably didnt know what hit them.One thing that puzzzles me though: while I realize Roger was tightly pinned to the cabin, it was a down-right tiny aircraft, so it would have been impossible for both Ritchie and J.P to miss him on ejection.Especially when one considers the size of both of them. So, Im guessing a couple things should have happened. Firstly, one of the two hit him(specifically Ritchie)and are held back, but later, through the tumbling and skidding ect..are completly ejected.The reason I specified this to Ritchie was, yet again, the reason that his body was thrown roughly the same lenghth of Buddys.The weight ratio just doesnt match up, Ritchie would have been at least between 15-25 pounds heavier than Buddy. So, by being held back by Roger, his initial momentum would have been broken and the body wouldnt have travelled nearly as far as it would have should it not have come into contact with anything, thus bringing him closer to Buddy. This could also provide an acceptable theory as to why Ritchie skull was more crushed then cracked. His body wasnt carrying the speed/momentum that Buddys was to be completly broken open, so it was merely severly crushed and dented. With the theory that you provided and my "alterations" it is understandable as to why the injuries did very so greatly, and why Buddy seemed to get the worst end of it.
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If I understand correctly, the Bonanza was a downright tiny aircraft. If specualation and "witness" at the airport at take-off are correct, this gives us another clue about Buddy's personality: he was downright persusive, and damn good at it too, if he was able to convince Ritchie and the Bopper into the back of the craft, where, though I have never seen a Bonanza, I'm sure the two would have been squished. Had the Bopper not been such a big man (I'm unsure of his height.) Buddy and Ritchie probably would still have been uncomfortable in the back, as, at six feet, there isn't a whole lot of leg room. So maybe all Buddy wanted was more leg room, but he sure knew the right tactics to use if he was able to get the front seat.
they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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Also, it's very difficult to analyze out-of-hand the physical dynamics of an event such as this... I mean, we're talking about a craft descending at 3000 feet per minute, around 165-175 mph, suffering a glancing impact on hard-frozen, icy ground, followed immediately by a 540 ft tumbling slide. This could be likened to an Indy 500 racer slamming into the wall at near-top-speed...with 3 passengers.
Well, the G-forces would be mind-boggling. In addition to the obvious catastrophic results, many tiny and intricate things happen, as well---for instance, the stitching in Buddy's leather duster seemed to have been removed delicately, almost thread-by-thread, by the tremendous forces involved, while all of J.P. Richardson's clothing was torn off of his body; Buddy's hidden handgun passed through the bottom of his shaving kit like wet tissue paper. Anything with mass aboard the plane became a lethal projectile. The passengers themselves became lethal projectiles. And all of this happened in fractions of seconds. A crash course in Newtonian physics, literally. So, what I see happening is J.P. and Ritchie pile-driving through the cabin on impact, probably on a slightly upward angle, crushing Roger and Buddy and exiting the plane where the windshield meets the roof. Roger is crushed downward onto his steering controls, is impaled there, his right thumb instantly amputated by the steering grip---Roger is not going anywhere, and rides the plane into the dirt. Under these kinds of forces, I don't believe anything could obstruct the forward momentum of the 3 entertainers---the seatbelts were pulled out by their roots on the first impact, Roger Peterson's body presented no real obstacle to the hurtling mass of passengers, and the boys were probably already outside, bouncing and skidding across the hard-frozen stubble field as the plane began tumbling and disintegrating itself. Again, weird little things happen in events like this. I don't think we can reconstruct the actual scenario based on the boys' final resting places at the fence line, because there's one other little element to complicate the equation---the field where they crashed is also on a slight incline, which can skew the best physical models, exaggerating results one way or the other. |
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Touche.I had never really thought about any of the gravitational forces which would have been a major factor in every aspect of this catastrophic event, but hey, Im only sixteen, cut me some slack! lol.But before I pose any new speculations to make this entire thing more complicated, let me re-cap what I think we all agree on:1)Buddy was in the front seat.2)they were all killed upon impact.3)the gun theory is bull.and 4)they were all thrown out of the aircraft upon impact.Holy crap.I agree now with the fact that Roger, givin the speed and gravity of the whole event, wouldnt have posed much of an obstcle, no. But wouldnt you think that Ritchie, being thrust foreword as powerfully as he was and being generally uninterupted, would have traveled at least the same distance as J.P?Instead, he was the same distance as Buddy, who, save for the thrust of the other two, didnt really recieve any foreword motion, but in fact, was held back initially by the instuments.Perhaps his angle of inclination after exiting the aircraft was not as steep, for whatever reason, than that of the others, decreasing his distance.The way I see things, upon impact, J.Pand Ritchie are thrust foreword,on a slightly upward angle through the windshield/roof.Ok, thats agreed upon.Roger is crushed down, being completly entagled in the wreck already, but Buddy is carried out with them, not being really consticted by the instruments, just crushed by them.In this enalogy, I think of a car crash, when everything is violently pushed foreword at you, effectivly crushing your legs and torso(yet more evidence Buddy was in the front). Buddy is carried out at a slighty "flatter"(srry, couldnt think of a word)angle of inclination,(due to being dragged out by the other two who would be at realitvly high angles), so he hits the ground more quickly than the other two, and at higher speed because he didnt have the distance to distribute his speed over.Thus, creating the severity of his injuries.J.P, with the combination of his weight and thrust, travels twice the distance of both Buddy and Ritchie, but would still hit the ground at a more forgiving speed due to the greater distance.And then, once again, theres Ritchie.I said earlier that one possible expalination to his stunted distance was that his angle of inclination, like Buddys, was somehow "flatter" However, while we have a possible explaination for Buddys, there is really nothing that explains why Ritchies would have appeared this way. Weight stunts you height, so, seeing as J.P would have had to have good hieght to have reached his distance,its obvious weight wasnt a factor here. Perhaps, instead of Roger being the obstacle, Buddy was. Afterall, he was initially pinned to his seat, so mabey, while both would have contibuted, it was Ritchies thrust more than J.Ps that pulled Buddy out of the arircraft.While, garnted, this wouldnt have completly broken the momentum, with the already reduced inclination, it would have drastically stunted his height and speed. Afterall, in this event it seems every pound counts, so if this is the case than Ritchie would have had an extra 145 pounds to stunt his hieght and bring him to the ground quicker. Alright, so thats the next chapter of debate.It really is too bad that this would be nearly impossible to recreate this scene, it would be so nice to go on more than speculation for once.Interesting fact brought up: why was Buddys jacket delicatly taken apart whilr J.Ps was ripped from his body??
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quote: That's a poser. The cops and coroner on the scene said Buddy was still dressed and wearing his famous yellow leather duster---for those outside the USA, a duster is an ankle-length coat, once used by horsemen to prevent their clothes from being covered in muck and dust. Anyway, those on the scene noticed that the long seams on the leather coat were open, but not torn open---it was as if the stitching had just fallen out. Meanwhile, 40 feet on the other side of the fence, J.P. Richardson wasn't wearing anything---well, some stories say he was wearing boxer shorts, but I think that story was fabricated to lend the Big Bopper just a little dignity in death. As I understand it, he had been peeled like a potato. It's just another one of those curiosities of extreme physics, you know? Like a tornado carrying a chicken egg eight miles and depositing it unbroken on somebody's roof---meanwhile the same tornado crushes a semi-truck flatter than a pancake. And, I tell you, Buddy and Ritchie and J.P. and Roger met with some extreme physics that night.  |
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As you say, for those outside of the USA....a duster would be like a trenchcoat, but in Buddy's case, yellow? I didn't even know that he was known for his yellow duster until I read it here. I have never heard that the Big Bopper had lost all his clothing in death, and yes, it does seem unlikely that he was left wearing boxer shorts, seeing as how everything else had been peeled off, but as it has already been seen, these were some extreme physics going on, so maybe he was left with his boxers perfectly in good shape.
It's interesting that Buddy also was not caught by the instruments, though I suppose there might be a few less instruments on Buddy's side because he was on the co-pilot's side. There are so many mysteries that we will never know that night, because contrary to what some say, there is also exceptions to every rule, physics included, and in this case, physics have failed us. Interesting though, that these boys, but especaially Buddy, had climbed to fame very quietly, and so would he die in a quiet manner, far from his native Texas soil. It's just a shame. Even if he hadn't kept in the music business, he shouldn't have died that night, just because he was cold and wanted to get his laundry done. But trust me, once music's in your blood, nothing short of a vampire transfusion can stop you from loving it, and even under those circumstances I have my doubts one could stop loving any kind of music. they crowned Elvis as King, but Buddy was the rightful heir. -"Only pity was him leaving this life so soon."-Travis Holley "To talk about what influenced my drumming-Buddy's guitar playing influenced my drumming more than anything else. I haven't played with anyone since that I could play with as well, because I learned to play drums with what Buddy played." -Jerry Allison "No ma'am, I don't have time."-Buddy Holly |
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